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Vim on Freenode
Hi Metacosm – Thanks for adding the info on #vim. I haven't used it, but I have heard that it can be very helpful, and we need some info here.
Please see my comments at the main page discussion.
--JohnBeckett 00:41, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I am learning how to use this thing -- not sure if all the content I have added "fits" with where you want to take this site.
MetaCosm 03:48, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
We're all learning here (we have had a couple of experienced wiki people, but they didn't stay long).
It's really great to get some more participation, so you are most welcome. If I find something you've done that I don't really like, I'll let you know. However, let me assure you that (assuming you don't run amok!) I won't have any serious problem. That is, I would far prefer contributors to be bold and do what they think is best, rather than be timid and try and get agreement before actually doing anything.
FYI if I'm having a discussion on a talk page (like this), I will look for replies here. So, please reply here (some people think they should reply on my talk page - very confusing). One good strategy would be to edit this page and put a horizontal rule (a single line consisting of "----"), then reply underneath.
Roughly how many more pages are you planning to create!? If there were a lot more, I would suggest that you wait a day or two to give me a chance to evaluate what's happened so far. I may have some suggestions.
--JohnBeckett 08:31, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Bulk is Done
The bulk of the edits / adds I am going to do are done -- there will be trickle after this, but the major push has been done.
I am a big wiki user, but, not this flavor, so lots of syntax changes to get used too.
--MetaCosm 09:02, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
While you're still malleable<g>, may I recommend consistency with our habits. These points are trivial, and ignore them if you like, but I thought I should let you know my opinion.
- The wiki convention for a page title is that all words are lowercase, except for the first word and proper nouns. So page "Make a Macro" should be "Make a macro".
- We'll fix this later (if we think it worthwhile). Please don't try and rename a bunch of pages now (it just makes crazy links from the old name to the new name and can get quite confusing). After the tips were imported from vim.org, I wrote a script to rename hundreds of tips (after a few of us did quite a lot of work deciding how to improve the titles – it's best to do that in bulk, after consultation).
- We tend to omit spaces in lists and headings. For example, this point starts with "*We" rather than "* We", and the heading is ==Recommendations==. Also, if you edit this page, you will see that I don't put a blank line after a heading.
- A few of us have a programming background where departures from house style cause considerable angst. Again, I'm just telling you this so you know my opinion. If you prefer your methods, I will get over it!
- On a talk page, a reply would normally be after ---- (a horizontal rule). A reply should not start with a heading. When there are three or more sections (I think), a Table of Contents is automatically inserted (unless you put __NOTOC__ somewhere on the page; I put it at the top). Each ==Heading== would be a new section with an entry in the ToC, so a reply should not be in a new section because that would look silly in the ToC, and is against the spirit of what a section heading is for.
- Ideally, a tip would have a bit more content than is on your new Make a Macro. However, every tip has to start somewhere, so a few stubs are fine. A quick search suggests we don't have anything with the simple "Make a macro" info, and it's definitely something we should have, preferably with a short example.
--JohnBeckett 05:59, 16 February 2008 (EST)
Pages in Vim Tips Wiki namespace
We started discussing this at Talk:Main_Page. I've deleted it there (irrelevant now that you've seen it).
- I "moved" the files I could from the Vim Tips space -- but it is still creating transparent redirects.
No problems – I'll fix that.
For the record, here's a list of the tips created in the project namespace:
- Vim Tips Wiki:Vim on Freenode moved to Vim on Freenode
- Vim Tips Wiki:New to Vim moved to New to Vim
- Vim Tips Wiki:BestTips duplicated in Best Tips
I have flagged each of the "Vim Tips Wiki" pages for deletion later. I could delete them now, but I've found that deleting can be a bit confusing when trying to make sense of the Recent Changes history. I'm just telling you this so you know it's taken care of.
--JohnBeckett 11:47, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I will adapt to all the conventions. I am a full time developer, and understand being tight about conventions. The flip-side of that -- and of this Wiki in general seems to be that it is a little complex / deep for people to get involved, I know multiple brilliant people in #vim has decided not to post things to this wiki because it is entirely unclear how to post / interrelated deep / complex topics.
I would love for this wiki to grow into more of a Vim Wiki (rather than just tips) about some of the complexities of the editor. Some of the best content I have seen written up is about topics a little more complex than most tips (see: File Format). Just my two cents.
--MetaCosm 22:09, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi MetaCosm – Thanks for the feedback. I have been wondering what we can do to get more involvement and your insights should be very valuable. It will be a couple of days before I can really think about what you're saying, and how the wiki might be adjusted, but I definitely want to hear more.
How do you feel about mailing lists? The wiki vim-l mailing list has been pretty silent for a while, but if we're going to discuss big picture items, that's probably where it should take place. I've been on the list since June 2007 and I'm pretty sure I haven't had any junk mail as a result. If it suits, you might like to post there outlining how you see things. Of course concrete suggestions would be best, but general guidance would be good too.
The File Format page you mentioned is good. VimTip26 needs more work, but has some quite good information (these two, and several others, need to be merged, providing the result is not too complex). I certainly agree with a point I think you are making, namely that many tips start at some elevated level, as if the point was to impress a bunch of colleagues with the author's brilliance. We need more accessible information.
--JohnBeckett 02:26, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
New tips for February
I just updated the list of new tips for this month. You might find it handy as a convenient way to refer to what you uploaded.
When I get a bit more time, I have to fix the list from 2007. Then I'll respond to your great post at vim-l (one reason I'm not rushing is to see if anyone else wants to join in first).
BTW part of the new tips handling procedure is that I will edit each page to include a standard template (see one of the new tips that you did not upload for an example). I might do a bit of superficial editing at the same time (stuff like inserting pre tags if necessary).
--JohnBeckett 09:10, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
You seem to like stuff to be clean and proper (as any good developer does). I will warn you now, if you get a lot more people kicking in feedback (if I unleash the #vim community of 300 idle users on you!)... you might start to feel like you are chasing your tail to try to keep stuff even somewhat clean. But, on the other side of the coin, you would have lots of groovie content, and we can always make it look better.
On my wikis, I generally focus on getting raw-content in, and letting clueful people help clean it up. It seems you are of the same mind (importing the tips from the vim.org site)
--MetaCosm 09:37, 17 February 2008 (UTC)